Talk: Red Faction

same universe?

(Note: As this is a long conversation between only two people, indentations have been changed for readability -452 16:36, April 13, 2011 (UTC))

I doubt they are in the same universe. They are just inside references because they are by the same developer. NT92 00:47, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think it is pretty clear that it is the same universe, due to so many similarities between Ultor in the two games. More importantly, there is nothing to suggest that they are NOT the same universe. Feel free to contact Volition for confirmation either way.

If there were only one or two references, then would be an Easter Egg. In Saints Row, for example, Ultor is only referenced by the Ultor Dome and the clothing line. At that point in time, it was only an Easter Egg, and there was no reason to believe they were the same universe, as we knew nothing more about the company.

But the name isn't the only thing that is the same, there is also the logo, slogan, and the fact that they make mining equipment, as well as other cryptic references. As the article says, the EDF Scout is very similar between games, there was no reason to include this vehicle along with all of the other things unless it was a deliberate clue to show us that it is the same Ultor.

But you are 100% right in removing the claim that Red Faction is a "sequel" to Saints Row. For example, the Alien and Predator series of movies occur in the same universe, but neither is a "sequel" to each other.

I'm not going to change your edits to the article, I just wanted to give you some things to think about :) -452 06:27, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

I get why u would think they are the same universe, because literally everything about Ultor is the same. But again that is just Volition using the company again for an unrelated series. Like when the protagonist says "they can go to mars for all i care" its a joke referencing how Ultor are eventually on mars, BUT NOT the same Ultor from Saints Row. Like u said, its most likely an Easter Egg, just references so people who have played Red Faction will grin when they hear the references. Its common to include lots of references and names between their games. Similar to the GTA series. However, u are right theres nothing saying they are not in the same universe. Also, just because there was a crossover between Alien and Predator, doesn't mean they are in the same universe. Same as Freddy vs Jason, its more or less two universes coming together to make a film. NT92 13:45, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

"Like u said, its most likely an Easter Egg,"

Please do not misquote me. I said the SR1 reference was an just Easter Egg, but in SR2 it was not just an Easter Egg

"Also, just because there was a crossover between Alien and Predator, doesn't mean they are in the same universe."

The Alien and Predator franchises in the same universe. It is a very similar case, Predator 2 included a Alien head as an Easter Egg, but the 2 AvP movies are canonical proof. More relevantly, the Aliens in Predator 2 and AvP are the same Aliens from Alien. The Predators from AvP are the same Predators from Predator. (Also, Weyland-Yutani is the same Weyland-Yutani). You can read about a whole list of different movies which are in the same universe here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheVerse (It mentions specifically that FOX, who made the movies, consider the Alien and Predator franchises to be in the same universe.)

"However, u are right theres nothing saying they are not in the same universe. "

There is more evidence that they are, then they are not. If you are certain that it is not the same Ultor, please contact Volition for confirmation, because proof either way would really help improve this wiki. -452 14:22, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

They are simply Easter Eggs. They are two series by the same developer and therefore include many nods to Saints Row. It doesn't automatically mean they are in the same universe just because of the references, no matter how many there are. NT92 14:32, April 13, 2011 (UTC) EDIT Also that link u posted is just TV tropes, it's not an official website. I look at it regularly because it makes jokes on things NT92 14:39, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say it was an offical website, I said it was a list.

If you are certain that it is not the same Ultor, please contact Volition for confirmation, because proof either way would really help improve this wiki. -452 14:41, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how to contact them. Why don't u contact them? Are u certain that they are the same universe? Easter Eggs/References aren't meant to be taken seriously. They have no ultimate purpose. Just tongue in cheek humour, thats all. NT92 14:45, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

"Video games aren't meant to be taken seriously. They have no ultimate purpose."

http://www.volition-inc.com/Contact/ (Thanks to google)

You are the one who removed it from the article, and I am challenging your edit, so the burden of proof is on you. Consider this a ^{[Reference needed]} :)

If you had added ^{[Reference needed]} to the article instead of removing what you didn't agree with, then the burden of proof would be on whoever originally added it, or anyone who felt like defending it, as no-one would be allowed to remove the ^{[Reference needed]} tag until they found proof.

If I was certain, I would put it back in the article, but I do not know of official confirmation either way. I just posted here to tell you why many people believe that there is overwhelming evidence that they are the same Ultor. -452 15:18, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Why did u quote me as sayin "Video games aren't meant to be taken seriously". I said Easter Eggs. There is no "evidence" that they are the same Ultor. Just inside joke references. A game set in present day on earth has no relation to a game set in 100+ years on Mars. Its ridiculous. But now i'll try to see if i can get an answer from Volition, but not to prove anybody wrong, because i don't need to. I would like confirmation myself. NT92 15:27, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

It was a joke, that is why I bolded the words "Video Games". Video Games are not meant to be taken seriously, just like Easter Eggs.

"There is no "evidence" that they are the same Ultor."

The similarity between the two companies is the evidence, and those similarities are cited in multiple articles.

"Just inside joke references. A game set in present day on earth has no relation to a game set in 100+ years on Mars. Its ridiculous. "

There are not facts, these are your opinions. I do not wish to argue with you about opinions. Opinions are irrelevant here. -452 15:52, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. BUT, those similarities which u call "evidence", are merely your opinions. NT92 15:55, April 13, 2011 (UTC) EDIT: And while video games are not meant to affect the real world, MANY of them ARE intended to be taken seriously as a work of fiction, especially those with strong stories. NT92 15:58, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

(Reformatting indentations for readability)

I have read through my comments, and I cannot find a single time in which I have misrepresented my opinions as facts. I have remained neutral, and prefixed all instances of my opinion with "I think" and "I believe".

• Fact: Ultor in Red Faction and Saints Row have the same name and logo.
• Fact: You said: "literally everything about Ultor is the same."
• Fact: Ultor in Red Faction and Saints Row are both corrupt corporations.
• Fact: Ultor in Red Faction and Saints Row both build mining equipment.
• Fact: Pyramid textures and design are similar to Ultor facilities in RF.
• Fact: The EDF scout in Red Faction and Saints Row are almost identical.
• Clue: Tera Patrick tells the Protagonist that he wouldn't believe her if she told you where Ultor intended for the EDF scout to be used.

Logically, these facts point to the conclusion that they are the same company. Logically, if Volition intended for RF Ultor and SR Ultor to be different companies, they would not have made them so similar.

If you would like to refute any of these facts, or offer any facts which indicate they are not the same company, please do. Otherwise, please stop arguing.

Let me know when Volition reply, I will not be replying again until then, as I have other things to do. If there's anything else I can help you with, please contact me on my talk page. :) -452 16:36, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Its all well and good quoting everything. Those are facts, but neither one of them makes it a fact that the games are in the same universe. They can be seen equally as mere references and nods, not clues or hints. Volition does not have to differentiate them. Volition created that company, and introduced them to another franchise, same universe or not. NT92 16:44, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Volition confirmed (16mins into the "Volition Plays Saints Row" livestream) that these were meant as in-jokes, and it was never planned to actually link the two franchises.

It's great that they've finally made a statement about this! -452 14:13, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

"Volition Plays Saints Row"

This has been used in several articles as references, but the link is a dead link. Either these should be replaced with a working link or the information it uses as a reference should be removed. User:Lar409 (21:22, 29 September 2013)

Should we also remove information about Saints Row DLC? (No, we shouldn't.)

Just because the source for something is no longer available, doesn't mean that it isn't valid information.

In cases of references which are no longer available, it's only really an issue if both the information and the person who added the information are both dubious - it's pretty much the same yardstick used for unreferenced information.

While years ago, some dubious information got through unquestioned, these days there are enough people around that anything suspicious is removed or questioned immediately.

user:452 (01:16, 3 October 2013)

It's strange that some of the URLs work, but not others.

live_user_dsvolition_1376926120.flv works.

user:452 (01:38, 3 October 2013)

No because Saints Row DLC can be confirmed because people have it, it is archived. The Red Faction connection, the Protagonist's name during development. These are things that can't be proved because it isn't archived. They may or may not be true.

User:Lar409 (03:57, 3 October 2013)

"These are things that can't be proved because it isn't archived."

False.

user:452 (04:00, 3 October 2013)

Okay, so prove it. Show me when they said that Red Faction and Saints Row aren't in the same universe.

User:Lar409 (04:03, 3 October 2013)

I validated the information when it was added, and I have the file archived.

The fact that you do not currently have access to the video does not negate the validity of the reference, or the information.

You have just been blocked from the wiki for a second week for removing confirmed information.

Additionally, if you're currently engaged in a discussion about some content, it is bad form to modify the content you are discussing.

user:452 (04:11, 3 October 2013)

You have every right to question any and all content you find on the wiki, and you are absolutely right to bring up that a link used as a reference is dead. But the fact that you cannot confirm the information yourself does not give you the right to remove valid information that you have already been told is confirmed.

Most information is checked very soon after it has been added, while the references are still fresh, so it's not normally an issue. So long as somebody trusted has confirmed the information, it's okay that the references can no longer be checked. (There's a whole bunch of information from the promo SRTT site which is now "gone")

If there's something that sounds unlikely, and the reference can no longer be accessed, I check the history of the page to see who added it. In this particular case, it was actually an IP user, so I would definitely have asked additional questions about this myself. Luckily, I didn't need to, since I've already watched the video, and can confirm it for you.

There are many things which I haven't personally confirmed, I don't usually check references that other administrators add, or even regular users, because I trust that they're not going to make stuff up. If one of those people ever said something provably false, then that would be an issue, and there are several sources which cannot be automatically trusted for that reason.

In future, if you have a question about the validity of information which you cannot confirm, it would be best if you did this on article talk pages, because the next time that someone comes along and wants to know whether that particular information has been confirmed, they will look on the talk page, not my wall history.

user:452 (17:02, 3 October 2013)

For the record, the reference was subsequently updated with a working link, but User:Lar409 returned and removed the reference to the working video. -452 (talk) 18:58, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

merge

This article predates the Easter Eggs article, and there seems to be no particular reason to keep it as a dedicated articles rather than a section in the Easter Eggs article. Unless there is a compelling reason to keep it, the merge will take place after one month. -452 22:18, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Technically, Red Faction is outside the scope of the Saints Row Wiki, so it is unusual for there to be a dedicated article rather than a section on the Easter Eggs page. -452 22:20, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Merged. Redirect kept. -452 21:00, June 7, 2017 (UTC)

Quotes

Because it bears repeating, here are the currently known quotes regarding Red Faction and Saints Row.

I hate to break the conspiracy theorists' bubbles about the Ultor Corporation [...] but there was never really a plan to link Saints Row to the Red Faction franchise.

— "Volition Plays Saints Row" (16 mins in)

Ultor in Saints Row 1 is sort of an homage to Red Faction

— Luke Schneider, lead multiplayer designer for Red Faction: Guerrilla.

Whether or not it ties into Red Faction is sort of up to the player's imagination

— Luke Schneider, lead multiplayer designer for Red Faction: Guerrilla.

Regarding your other question about links between RF and SR, these are more easter eggs rather than official canon

— @DSVolition twitter, Feb 28 2018

Seems pretty fucking definitive to me. -452 18:24, May 12, 2018 (UTC)